Curse

WildmouseX · Jun 09, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

Wildmouse has a valid point we have argued in the past even if he had a bad analogy. If his reference to Christopher Reeves is all you can find fault with you should reconsider whether or not to post

hey sometimes you have give people a way to bitch about what your saying when they can't argue aginst the logic.

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(check out mouse's zodiac clearence sale http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...03#post2893103)

Bryant Again · Jun 09, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

Yes everything has been beaten to death, there really is no need to re-address the same tired old points.

I'm bored. That's why I'm commenting on this.

I'm also at the WoW forums, too. Seriously, go to general. There is NOTHING but QQers in there. Funniest shit eva!

icymanipulator · Jun 09, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm bored. That's why I'm commenting on this.

I'm also at the WoW forums, too. Seriously, go to general. There is NOTHING but QQers in there. Funniest shit eva!

OT, but dude...tell me you've seen the funeral crash video on youtube that took place in the middle of a PvP zone set to Misfit's - Where Eagles Dare. Absolutely hilarious!

Bryant Again · Jun 09, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

OT, but dude...tell me you've seen the funeral crash video on youtube that took place in the middle of a PvP zone set to Misfit's - Where Eagles Dare. Absolutely hilarious!

Lmao, now I did!! Aw man, look at all those HKs...And a Gnome was leading the way

. That kills me.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

yknow... after playing some more today I'm beginning to realize just how overpowered searing flames/rodgort's invocation, and liquid flame really are. take a necro down in 2 seconds. haven't seen a necro take an elementalist down in 2 seconds yet... give the necro some nukes that big, then we'll talk about nerfing a random stream of energy, eh? when you factor in lower damage, and still being hindered by cast and recast timers, having energy regen isn't all that. and with a smaller pool, exhaustion is a killer, and DP as well.

The Great Al · Jun 09, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

yknow... after playing some more today I'm beginning to realize just how overpowered searing flames/rodgort's invocation, and liquid flame really are. take a necro down in 2 seconds. haven't seen a necro take an elementalist down in 2 seconds yet... give the necro some nukes that big, then we'll talk about nerfing a random stream of energy, eh? when you factor in lower damage, and still being hindered by cast and recast timers, having energy regen isn't all that. and with a smaller pool, exhaustion is a killer, and DP as well.

Next, will monks be complaining that they can't take a warrior down in a few seconds? You're a necro, know your role.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

i know my role. the problem is those that call for a nerf don't. they seem to think necro is some big damage powerhouse that is overpowered, and that simply is not the case.

upier · Jun 09, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

yknow... after playing some more today I'm beginning to realize just how overpowered searing flames/rodgort's invocation, and liquid flame really are. take a necro down in 2 seconds. haven't seen a necro take an elementalist down in 2 seconds yet... give the necro some nukes that big, then we'll talk about nerfing a random stream of energy, eh? when you factor in lower damage, and still being hindered by cast and recast timers, having energy regen isn't all that. and with a smaller pool, exhaustion is a killer, and DP as well.

low-end pvp?
factions breed of a necro touchy.

pve?
MoP+Barbs+SS + melee heavy team = dead Torment parties in seconds

the problem is that the necro IS easy mode of GW.
and now it got harder.
and some players don't want to OR are unable to adapt to that fact.

was/is SR overpowered?
yes!
if there is one thing one can count on in pve its deaths. and turning deaths into energy (passively!) is just insanely sweet for a caster!

is the new version better?
no. the timer is idiotic.

was the change needed?
when playing a non-necro caster - yes! it was just too good of a primary compared to all others. SURE it would be nicer if other caster primaries were buffed - but that's not the way a.net works.
when playing a necro - it was actually sweet! overpowered things never stink! unless they are used against me!

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

is the new version better?
no. the timer is idiotic.

was the change needed?
when playing a non-necro caster - yes! it was just too good of a primary compared to all others. SURE it would be nicer if other caster primaries were buffed - but that's not the way a.net works.
when playing a necro - it was actually sweet! overpowered things never stink! unless they are used against me!

as some one who plays all classes, I see that as more of a grass is always greener scenario. theres times necros wish they had 100% half cast time instead. theres times necros wish they had more than double their energy pool instead of regen. theres times necros wish they had health gain whenever an enchantment ends. theres times necros wish they had half cost on all skills. no matter what class you play, there is always going to be something another class can do that you can't, and something you can do that another class can't. necros can keep up a minion army. elementalists can nuke nuke nuke and not have to worry as much about exhaustion or DP. healers can single-handedly keep a whole group alive with 5e spells.
yknow, my monk actually had to worry about energy less than my necro did. does that mean monks are overpowered, since the only reason people say necros are overpowered is because they didn't have to worry about energy?

arcanemacabre · Jun 09, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taala

Here's how I used to go through Oro before Verata's Sacrifice nerf.

Yeah, Devona and Virulence really rock.

I wasn't talking about before the MM nerf, which by the way, I was actually for. MMs were once heavy duty, and were nerfed down to a more balanced style of play with the 10 minion limit and Verata's Sacrifice becoming essentially useless. Doesn't have anything to do with SR, though.

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

i know my role. the problem is those that call for a nerf don't. they seem to think necro is some big damage powerhouse that is overpowered, and that simply is not the case.

My necro is fine after the nerf. What's up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

yknow... after playing some more today I'm beginning to realize just how overpowered searing flames/rodgort's invocation, and liquid flame really are. take a necro down in 2 seconds. haven't seen a necro take an elementalist down in 2 seconds yet... give the necro some nukes that big, then we'll talk about nerfing a random stream of energy, eh? when you factor in lower damage, and still being hindered by cast and recast timers, having energy regen isn't all that. and with a smaller pool, exhaustion is a killer, and DP as well.

Rock paper scissors. GW is not balanced on 1v1. Unless you're testing this in some other way? I am yet once more confused.

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

My necro is fine after the nerf. What's up?

and my warrior, monk, elementalist, mesmer, necro, ranger, ritualist, assassin, dervish, and even paragon were fine before the nerf. whats up?

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Rock paper scissors. GW is not balanced on 1v1. Unless you're testing this in some other way? I am yet once more confused.

you're missing the point. but that doesn't really matter, its doesn't need your understanding i guess.

Does-it-Matter · Jun 10, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

playing a necro as a mm you generaly don't start throwing spells untill things start dyeing, the series of event i discribed could happen 15-20-30 seconds into the fight, as long as you haven't had a chance to cast a minnion spell it's still valid.

Ok, I would be interested in seeing how this "15-20-30 seconds into the fight" scenario would play out, as the one you initially proposed, and the one I commented on was a battle in which 75% of the enemies drop in the first 5 seconds. Until then, I can't comment against anecdotal evidence.

Quote:

where the hell you finding 61 energy for a necro? my radiant set net's me 50. with half of the necro's curse's costing 15 energy, and have 1 second cast times, burning though 60 energy in 5 seconds is not only posible, it happens.

Base Energy (20), Inherent Armor Bonus (10), Radiant Insignias (8), 5^50 Wand (5), Off-hand (12), 2-3 Runes of Attunement (4-6)

Total: 59-61 Energy.

Blood Magic:
(16) 5-Energy Skills
(16) 10-Energy Skills
(5) 15-Energy Skills

Curse Magic:
(2) No Energy Skills
(10) 5-Energy Skills
(23) 10-Energy Skills
(7) 15-Energy Skills
(3) 25-Energy Skills (2/3 of that being Elites)

(Thus your "Half of Necro's Curses cost 15 Energy" statement in actually applies to less than 23%)

Death Magic:
(15) 5-Energy Skills
(17) 10-Energy Skills
(6) 15-Energy Skills
(2) 25-Energy Skills

Soul Reaping:
(1) 5-Energy
(1) 10-Energy
(1) 15-Energy

No Attribute
(1) 5-Energy
(2) 10-Energy

Overall
(6) No Energy
(43) 5-Energy
(59) 10-Energy
(19) 15-Energy
(5) 25-Energy

Out of 132 skills, ~82% of them cost 10 energy or less. 4 Energy gain skills, 2 of which are elite.

Monk
(9) No Energy
(59) 5-Energy (many of which give -1 Energy Regeneration)
(46) 10-Energy
(11) 15-Energy
(2) 25-Energy

Out of 127 skills, 90% cost 10 Energy or less. 8 Energy Gain Skills, 5 of which are elites.

Elementalist:
(0) No Energy
(48) 5-Energy
(52) 10-Energy
(25) 15-Energy
(8) 25-Energy

Of 133 skills, 76% of them cost 10 Energy or less. 13 skills for energy gain, 7 of which are elite.

Mesmer
(12) No Energy
(33) 5-Energy
(60) 10-Energy
(19) 15-Energy
(2) 25-Energy

Out of 126 skills, 83% are 10 Energy or less. 28 skills give energy, 5 of which are elite.

Ritualist
(5) No Energy
(43) 5-Energy
(31) 10-Energy
(13) 15-Energy
(7) 25-Energy

Out of 99 Skills, 80% are 10 energy or less. 10 skills give energy, 6 of which are elite.

Summary (% of skills greater than 10 energy)
Ritualist 20%
Necromancer 18%
Mesmer 17%
Elementalist 14%
Monk 10%

Necro's aren't as taxed on energy-heavy skills as one might lead others to believe.

Quote:

just because you believe something, doesn't make it reality.

Either you missed my sarcasm, or you're arguing that Soul-Reaping does not yield energy? (Which by definition it does.)

Below is where the above statistics start to come into play.

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again you are ignoreing the fact that many, in fact most of the necros usefull skills are 15-25e

There are 24 Skills in the necromancer line costing more than 10 Energy. With the except of 2 touch/bite skills, and Order of Apocasty the shortest "cast to cast" time (read: spammable) is six seconds. Followed by a couple at 8 and then many above 12.

If you are depleted your entire energy within 2-3 skills in 5 seconds, you are casting nothing but 25 energy spells (and you don't see a problem with free spamming of 25 energy skills?)

It will take you roughly 4-5 seconds to cast said pair of 25 energy spells. Then another 6-45 seconds (unless you are using the aforementioned skills, though you are likely a toucher ranger if you have 2/3 of them and thus not worrying about energy costs.). I'm pretty sure in that time you can regain your energy, since you are able to gain around 59 energy in a 15 second span.

Now if you have 4 or more 25 energy spells (25%+ of those available to the entire line) on your skill bar, then no, you will probably not have the energy to continue to use them frequently.

This IS that balance you talk about next.

Quote:

- a balance mechnism that's been in place since the start of the game. - so wooptie do we gain enough energy to throw 2 more skills., when an el, mes, or monk can throw an e-management skill and get the same ammount of E, but useing 5e skills.

Elementalists deal with exhaustion, and have nine more 15+ energy skills than Necros.

Mesmers have three less 15+ energy skills compared to Necros. Then, of course, the mesmer deals with the gain and loss of energy (in either the self or enemy) and the ability to shutdown other players in trade for the raw damage that other Professions hold. (Very useful in PvP, but petition-bait for PvE, it seems.)

Monks have eleven less 15+ energy skills than Necros. They only have 3 energy management skills (one of which is very situational) if they don't wish to sacrifice their elite.

Ritualists (keeping in mine they have less total skills as a non-core class) have more 15+ energy skills, by percentage, than Necromancers and four options for energy-gain if they don't wish to dedicate their elite for it.

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not only do we have high energy costs and extreamly long recharge rates that were intended to balance the massive ammounts of energy, we now have to deal with those without the energy.

You only lack the energy if you lack the planning, OR have occasional bad luck (If an e-denial targets you, in PvE or PvP, it will be a bad day.)

You don't NEED to fill your bar with High Energy, Long Recharge (HELR) skills. One or two, sure, but then we have so many lower energy and quicker recharging skills at our arsenal as well. Mix them up.

If you know your group is going to be killing 75% of the monsters in the mob in the first 5 seconds and this interferes with your energy level... wait 5 seconds, and then use it against the remaining 25%. If you were the one responsible for killing 75% of the mob, dance a jig, because your energy was well used. Now it's time for the other members of the group to do something... unless you want to be able to kill 100% of mobs quickly by yourself.

As to your vague 15-20-30 seconds into battle scenario... You've either already cast your HELR spells and are waiting for them to recharge (so cast the lower, quicker ones...) and gaining 12-16-24 energy respectfully from just your 4 Pips (not even counting SR) or you haven't done anything yet, in which case you have up to 61 energy at your disposal.

---

What many people fail to understand is the days of the Mega Minion Master are over. Minion caps limited that, the Verata's Sacrafice change limited that, the BotM change limited that... and to a degree SR changes limited that. My heroes have absolutely no problem maintaining 10 minions despite the fact that I don't have any minion-healing skills for them.

Did I enjoy the days of having 30+ minions during the Stoneskin quest, and ~20 in general? Hell yes! Would I be thrilled if they reverted back to those days? Yep! Do I think it would be balanced? Nope.

Did I love being able to spam High Energy spells like there was no tomorrow, so long as bodies were hitting the floor? You bet, it just wasn't balanced.

Don't try to compare yourself to a Fire Nuker... they are just going to win. That is what they do. The Necromancer does not, by construction, fit into the Holy Trinity of RPGs (Tank, Nuker, Healer.) They are a roundabout profession, requiring a little imagination and careful attention.

There is a HUGE difference between not having to focus on energy management, and not having to have any concerns about it. One is balanced, the other (while fun) isn't.

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

and my warrior, monk, elementalist, mesmer, necro, ranger, ritualist, assassin, dervish, and even paragon were fine before the nerf. whats up?

Nope, there were overpowered after this nerf of theirs. I don't know what you're saying (again).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

you're missing the point. but that doesn't really matter, its doesn't need your understanding i guess.

I'm asking to understand how you're comparing apples and oranges. Two different classes, two different purposes. Eles blow shit up cus that's what they do. If there were sooverpowered that would be the only class anyone'd role, ya? Not to mention that enemy AI runs when there's an AOE.

icymanipulator · Jun 10, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Thats a lovely analysis Does-it-Matter, but how about factoring in casting times and skill recharges? You are only looking at one piece of a 3 part puzzle. Then you have to consider that mesmers have fast casting to offset their spells. Elementalists have energy storage to offset their energy costs. Monks have Divine Favor to provide healing benefit therefore having to cast fewer spells to do the same amount of work.

Edit: Also it should be noted that sure anyone can slap a bunch of 25e skills on the bar, it won't be a viable build under any circumstances. Yes this was hyperbole on your part but its still ridiculous. For the most part necro bars have 5e skills with the majority 10e and 1 or 2 15e spells tops, with a 25e being part of MM almost exclusively.

Minion Masters are also the least effected by the change of all necromancer builds and the damage can be somewhat easily offset by Consume Corpse of which Carinae has done a thorough in depth analysis elsewhere.

pingu666 · Jun 10, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

ele damage is more badly effected by armour than physical imo, as rangers and some ele armours have +al vs elemental, while physical its pretty much just warriors with +20al, but they pack high al vs elemental

SR works still, and provides alot of raw energy, sols is gravy too.

my olias runs sols, blood ritual (he uses it very, very well), fleshy, shambling, fiend, heal area, res chant

blood 4
death 15 (cheap major rune

)
healing prayers 7
soul reaping rest

he does fine with it, and provides great support to monks/eles or whoever needs it

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Eles blow shit up cus that's what they do. If there were sooverpowered that would be the only class anyone'd role, ya? Not to mention that enemy AI runs when there's an AOE.

and if necros were so overpowered that would be the only class anyone would role, and that obviously was not the case. more people played warriors than necros, and a lot of other classes are more popular than necro too. as for ele... have you gone to high end pve? thats one of the only classes that gets accepted into groups for damage dealing. oh, and they seriously toned down the AoE nerf in PvE, its not as strong as it was before the AI upgrade, but its pretty damn close.

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

ele damage is more badly effected by armour than physical imo, as rangers and some ele armours have +al vs elemental, while physical its pretty much just warriors with +20al, but they pack high al vs elemental

most elementalist damage is also immune the the effects of blind and blocking... some of the necro spells are too, but one good blocking stance will nullify a minion army...

icymanipulator · Jun 10, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Heres a ridiculously common necro build for you compared to a ridiculously common monk build...tell me if you can figure out the differences...

N/Me SS Nuker

Awaken the Blood 10e/ 1sec/ 45sec
Arcane Echo 15e/ 2sec/ 30sec
Spiteful Spirit 10e/ 2sec/ 10sec
Reckless Haste 15e/ 2sec/ 25sec
Enfeebling Blood 10e/ 2sec/ 5sec
Spinal Shivers 10e/ 2sec/ 15sec
Blood Ritual 10e/ 2sec/ 2sec
Resurrection Signet N/A

(Average 11.5e/ 2sec/ 19sec)

Mo/E ZB

Reversal of Fortune 5e/ 1/4sec/ 2sec
Dismiss Condition 5e/ 3/4sec/ 3sec
Zealous Benediction 10e/ 3/4sec/ 4sec
Protective Spirit 10e/ 1/4sec/ 5sec
Glyph of Lesser Energy 5e/ 1sec/ 30sec
Aegis 15e/ 2sec/ 30sec
Holy Veil 5e/ 1sec/ 12sec
Resurrection Signet N/A

(Average 8e/ 1sec/ 12sec)

I even gave you a more "fair" monk build with 2x 30 second recharge times and just look at those averages! You are honestly going to sit there and claim there is no necromancer "tax"?

This also says nothing for the fact that only 2 of the necro spells are actually spammable Enfeebling Blood and Blood Ritual...and there is no reason to spam them. That compared with at least 4 the monk can and will be spamming during the same time frame.

I just want to make sure you understand we have had this argument in the other thread already and it got nowhere.

Edit: Put rez sig on ZB to make it a 7 to 7 comparison rather than 7 to 8.